tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post1501564158772969206..comments2023-10-04T09:50:08.070-05:00Comments on Logismoi: St Mark of Ephesus on St Gregory of NyssaAaron Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-53177712920573818572010-04-08T10:22:11.323-05:002010-04-08T10:22:11.323-05:00http://www.archive.org/stream/patrologiaorient15pa...http://www.archive.org/stream/patrologiaorient15pariuoft#page/52/mode/2upLupambulus Berolinen.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16734359484111844881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-4804485291481304372010-02-12T16:21:33.409-06:002010-02-12T16:21:33.409-06:00On Metropolitan Hierotheos, I don't see his wo...On Metropolitan Hierotheos, I don't see his works as really belonging to the scholarly realm at all. (That is not, O readers, intended even remotely as any kind of insult!!!) The ones that I have, anyway, are primarily pastoral in nature. This certainly fills a need, though! I do know among Greek laity, he is indeed popular, because he is a kind of bridge to deeper subjects, relaying to them the asceticism that all seem to hunger for in their daily lives. The gentle plain-spokeness of his writing is very effective.<br /><br />But this is, of course, a separate realm from any academic theology. It is hermeneutics in action, the pastoral care, in writing, of a shepherd for the flock. And as such a popularizing writer, as one might call His Eminence, he is doing a splendid job.Kevin P. Edgecombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16590490181739464401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-35717488747258690892010-02-11T15:27:30.008-06:002010-02-11T15:27:30.008-06:00Aaron > My advisor is Dr. Tselengidis. I very ...Aaron > My advisor is Dr. Tselengidis. I very much enjoy and appreciate St. John Damascene's works, so I'm happy to have arrived at this topic. I'm nearing the end of the writing now. Aaron, if you have particular interest in this topic, I'd be happy to discuss it with you offline. I do seek knowledgeable feedback on it, but I'm not yet ready to proclaim my oddball findings to the world, since they haven't yet received approval by anyone qualified.<br /><br />Isaac and Aaron > I can't be of much help here; I haven't read Met. Hierotheos' works myself, so I didn't pay particular attention to his reception in Greece. I don't recall Fr. Nicholas mentioning him, but that may be due to the weakness of my memory. I can confirm in a general way that, in my limited experience, his works are not much used in scholarly dialogue in Greece, at least not directly. But I myself wouldn't infer too much from this; after all he is a pastor, not a academic, and since the two communities have somewhat different goals and methods, it is natural enough. There is some intersection—I recall that he presented a paper at the academic conference on Ecumenism (2004?). And I would agree that he is very influential in Greece on the whole.Mark Montaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810860235260674570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-12589372273577219562010-02-11T14:48:35.855-06:002010-02-11T14:48:35.855-06:00Isaac> Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say...Isaac> Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say +Hierotheos is not appreciated in Greece at all. Certainly, his prolific output is available in all of the bookshops there, so somebody must be buying them!<br /><br />I just mean that Met. Hierotheos doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Greek theology schools or the writings of their professors (although there is a brief summary of what he says about the person in one of my advisor's books). In fact, I've been told that Fr Nicholas Loudovikos, by whom I was quite impressed both personally and as a theological writer and teacher, has been rather dismissive of His Eminence (maybe Mark can confirm this, since he attended quite a few of Fr Loudovikos's lectures). <br /><br />My comment about his value to Anglophone Orthodox was meant to suggest that while the translations of His Eminence's works have done much to fill a lacuna in Orthodox sources in English (specifically on ascetic theology), the Greeks, having many more and perhaps superior sources available to draw on, have not found them as valuable as many of us have. <br /><br />Perhaps Mark would care to weigh in on this?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-61689215556698747622010-02-11T14:35:13.938-06:002010-02-11T14:35:13.938-06:00What an interesting question, and an interesting p...What an interesting question, and an interesting possibility put forward by the beloved Met. Hierotheos Vlachos. You know, if he's not appreciated in Greece, perhaps one of the Phanariot jurisdictions here in America should try to get him transferred to us. <br /><br />I have been continually impressed by the wisdom of the Nafpaktian and hope that perhaps your question will someday be settled conclusively by a more exhaustive study. This is the problem with your blog, Aaron: far too many interesting subjects!Isaachttp://www.thecrabtree.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-20107694092127085282010-02-11T10:38:50.098-06:002010-02-11T10:38:50.098-06:00Mark> Wow, that's some difficult stuff. I l...Mark> Wow, that's some difficult stuff. I like that you picked St John Damascene. Who's your advisor?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-20255192293918180852010-02-11T00:12:35.027-06:002010-02-11T00:12:35.027-06:00"Hypostasis, Nature, and Energies According t..."Hypostasis, Nature, and Energies According to St. John Damascene"Mark Montaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810860235260674570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-81791714889034872492010-02-10T23:05:46.550-06:002010-02-10T23:05:46.550-06:00Mark> What's your thesis topic?
Taylor>...Mark> What's your thesis topic?<br /><br />Taylor> Hear, hear!Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-15588641977234030582010-02-10T20:45:41.042-06:002010-02-10T20:45:41.042-06:00Hi Mark - Don't be tempted by logismoi to negl...Hi Mark - Don't be tempted by logismoi to neglect that thesis of yours. <br /><br />Aaron - Maybe the monks should stop cooking visitors and use that time to translate patristic texts! In all seriousness, the solution to our problem is probably to encourage real monasticism as much as we can - in our children, our family and friends, our parish, etc. We don't simply need texts translated from one tongue to another, we need holy men and women to show us the proper way to read and understand these texts. I think Fr. Seraphim did an excellent job of this, and was marvelously productive during his short life.Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10409029017940484576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-65243495309363058762010-02-10T16:44:14.198-06:002010-02-10T16:44:14.198-06:00Aaron, I can't tell you much about him; he'...Aaron, I can't tell you much about him; he's one of those familiar names in Greek theological circles. Some works in English listed here: <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ATH=Constantine+N.+Tsirpanlis" rel="nofollow">Barnes & Noble</a>. The work I quoted from was published in English. Just from web searching, he seems to be an extremely prolific theologian and byzantine historian, still active. Interesting that we didn't intersect with him in Greece.Mark Montaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810860235260674570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-44345962839202110822010-02-10T16:21:40.421-06:002010-02-10T16:21:40.421-06:00Sorry, on that last message I meant to say 'he...Sorry, on that last message I meant to say 'helping visitors'. As it is written, it's rather disturbingly ambiguous, isn't it?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-80977463327084145182010-02-10T16:20:10.768-06:002010-02-10T16:20:10.768-06:00Taylor> I had had the same thought about monast...Taylor> I had had the same thought about monastic translators. Unfortunately, it seems like most of the monks I know are either not qualified or too busy themselves! Their 'dayjobs' seem to be building churches, cooking meals, and visitors.<br /><br />Mark> How wonderful to hear from you! Thank you very much for the passage from Tsirpanlis, and I think you're right to trust the combined witness of him and Fr Seraphim. It sounds like St Mark really was prepared to admit St Gregory was an Origenist on this point.<br /><br />Tsirpanlis's name is familiar to me. What else has he written? And has he been translated into English?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-15011787572438368812010-02-10T15:59:48.844-06:002010-02-10T15:59:48.844-06:00Dear Aaron - Greetings! Another excellent post. ...Dear Aaron - Greetings! Another excellent post. Thank you.<br /><br />Constantine N. Tsirpanlis' fascinating study "Mark Eugenicus and the Council of Florence" (Thessaloniki, 1974) weighs in as follows: "Mark's eschatology is in agreement with that of the Greek Fathers, except St. Gregory of Nyssa, who was tainted with the Origenist heresy, which taught that the fire of hell is not eternal, and therefore tended to relax the vigilance and morality of the faithful. Mark, however, tries to lighten Gregory's responsibility and heterodoxy in this respect, by stressing the possibility for any human being, even for a doctor, to be in error, particularly on a doctrine like Purgatory, which in Gregory's times was still undefined, unclarified and unsettled. Since Gregory's teaching supports the Origenist ἀποκατάστασις, which was anathematized by the fifth ecumenical council, his views on purgatorial fire—if indeed they are his own genuine beliefs—cannot be held as authoritative and orthodox, according to Mark Eugenicus." (pp. 80-1) I've left out the extensive footnotes to the original texts. I take Tsirpanlis and Fr. Seraphim to be in agreement, and, given their references to the texts, I'm inclined to believe them.<br /><br />-MarkMark Montaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810860235260674570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-59890385820762885092010-02-10T11:21:45.499-06:002010-02-10T11:21:45.499-06:00There are other studies of the Council of Florence...There are other studies of the Council of Florence available. I've seen J. Gill referenced recently, though I've forgotten where. <br /><br />As to translations, day jobs and children are two reasons why monks have traditionally done most of the translation work!Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10409029017940484576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-69167227268335562862010-02-10T10:23:13.337-06:002010-02-10T10:23:13.337-06:00Justinian> Don't worry, I was only reacting...Justinian> Don't worry, I was only reacting a little bit to the apparent decisiveness of the comment, which is natural given that not only all patristics scholars, but even Fr Seraphim regard him as teaching universalism. I have never given any great attention to the matter, although my own reading of St Gregory suggested to me that he is inconsistently universalist if at all, but the post on St Mark reminded me of this discrepancy between two writers I respected and I thought I would get it out there to provoke some discussion. I had actually written the entire thing prior to your comment, so I had only to throw in my remark about that just before posting (though without naming you or linking to it so as to temper any potential friction). I'm sorry if the post came off as a broadside directed against you!Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-46113763272370884842010-02-10T10:10:33.685-06:002010-02-10T10:10:33.685-06:00Aaron--I am both grieved (because it apparently tr...Aaron--I am both grieved (because it apparently troubled you) and delighted (because it provoked such an interesting post) by my flippancy in referring to St. Gregory of Nyssa. I in no way meant the "we all know he taught universalism" comment to be taken too terribly seriously; it's just that, these days and among most Orthodox people I know, St. Gregory is regarded with some suspicion because of his 'universalism.' Quite frankly, he never mentions such a thing in the works of his that I own (which are, admittedly, scant--and, moreover, in translation). And, as I mentioned, I find him a source of great inspiration and grace, particularly with his homilies on The Lord's Prayer. The comment was more to illustrate the point that I was making that, real or imagined, the Cappadocian Fathers did have some flaws; but that makes them more endearing, not less.Justinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207103546838127832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-58550985491838480682010-02-10T09:34:02.644-06:002010-02-10T09:34:02.644-06:00Yes, this situation was roundly lamented in the co...Yes, this situation was roundly lamented in the comments on last week's post on St Mark. The problem as always is the time and difficulty coupled with the lack of financial support for such a project. If a bunch of people like you could pool their money, perhaps they could pay a translator to get to work. I know more than enough people who could do the job, but they're having to work day jobs and raise children!Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-10108258223290333392010-02-10T09:25:51.199-06:002010-02-10T09:25:51.199-06:00It's a shame that more of St Mark's writin...It's a shame that more of St Mark's writings are not available in reliable English translations. Even his homilies on purgatory, included in Fr Seraphim's *The Soul After Death* are translations of the Russian translation, and I understand they are abbreviated, too. <br /><br />Someone needs to take on the task of translating his works into English.Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07859685939890312325noreply@blogger.com