tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post4859458250103638289..comments2023-10-04T09:50:08.070-05:00Comments on Logismoi: 'Beauty of Speech Was Added to Thee'—St Gregory the TheologianAaron Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-77341625859456376032010-02-10T16:15:00.202-06:002010-02-10T16:15:00.202-06:00Taylor> Well, I'll definitely have to make ...Taylor> Well, I'll definitely have to make it a priority to get ahold of Carruthers sometime soon! I agree with you too that we should be cultivating memory even on a lower level.<br /><br />As for Mark, I see he has now followed your example and chimed in, so I run the risk of embarrassing him, but yes, he's a wonderful friend. I really miss our discussions!<br /><br />I am of course familiar with Fr Dragas's work, though I can't say I've read very much of it. From what I've seen, I think you're quite right about him.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-80599189461521515782010-02-09T12:39:13.201-06:002010-02-09T12:39:13.201-06:00Hi Aaron - Your right that cultivating the ars mem...Hi Aaron - Your right that cultivating the ars memoriae of the ancients is probably beyond our capacity. However, I think memory, even on a lower level, is sorely neglected in our days. Until recently, most Orthodox monks would have memorized most if not all of the New Testament by the end of their life. Most Christians (Orthodox and others) would have memorized most if not all of the Psalms. Carruthers is encouraging because in her book she actually describes practicing some of the ancient techniques in order to memorize some of the Psalms. One of the more outstanding literary examples of memory is found in Blessed Augustine's Confessions. His friend Simplicianus memorized the Aeneid to such a degree that if someone mentioned a line from it he could recite the poem backwards from that line! Sadly, memory is not so appreciated in our days. <br /><br />I am Orthodox, and a student at Holy Cross in Brookline, working on an MTS degree. They don't ask us to do a thesis here - my general interest is patristics, Greek and Latin. Like many Western converts, I am especially interested in 'bridge figures' of the first millennium of the church who show forth the unity of the undivided church. <br /><br />I think we have a mutual friend, Mark Montague, who I see is listed as a contributor on a different blog of yours. Mark and I were at the same parish until recently in NH. <br /><br />I'm sure you're familiar with one of our professors here at HC, Archpriest George Dragas - to follow up an earlier thread of this conversation, I think he is a good example of a professor and writer who is both scholarly and faithful to the traditions of the church. In this I think he follows his teacher, Archpriest Georges Florovsky.Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10409029017940484576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-49588461535605412382010-02-08T20:06:40.241-06:002010-02-08T20:06:40.241-06:00The mission is in Moundville, Alabama (a suburb of...The mission is in Moundville, Alabama (a suburb of Tuscaloosa, home of the University of Alabama).<br /><br />All three of the Cappadocians are favorites, it just depends on what I'm reading and what I need to hear as to which one of them is in ascendancy at any given time. Lately, it's been St. Gregory of Nyssa, but I'm sure it'll swing back soon.<br /><br />And yes, none of the three of them were perfect; St. Gregory the Theologian had quite a temper (maybe there's hope for this sinner yet!), St. Basil was sometimes transparently manipulative (but, he was also transparent with living flame, when he met St. Ephraim the Syrian), and (as we all know) St. Gregory of Nyssa taught universalism. But their humanity is what makes them appealing, to me, anyway. <br /><br />And since we're talking about the Cappadocians--I have a friend who says that St. Basil is proof that, from early times, women were not considered suitable candidates for ordination...otherwise, his mother and his sister would never have escaped his itchy hands. :)Justinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207103546838127832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-36975807453614165392010-02-08T15:46:19.694-06:002010-02-08T15:46:19.694-06:00Taylor> Thank you for your kind words! Unfortun...Taylor> Thank you for your kind words! Unfortunately, I am not directly familiar with Carruthers at all. I have been aware of her books for some time, and would love to read them, but they are on the 'to read' list and not the 'already read' one. Of course, it would help if I possessed copies of them, or even if a local bookstore had them. It is in part an 'out of sight, out of mind' problem.<br /><br />I <i>do</i> however know and cherish the book <i>Art of Memory</i> by Dame Frances Yates. It inclines me to agree with your point about information saturation. But of course the <i>ars memoriae</i> is such a discipline, I'm afraid cultivating it is much easier said than done.<br /><br />I'd be interested to hear about your studies--thesis topic, school you're at, etc. Also, are you Orthodox, by any chance?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-77220623199173205472010-02-08T13:24:49.408-06:002010-02-08T13:24:49.408-06:00Hi Aaron - I just discovered your site a few days ...Hi Aaron - I just discovered your site a few days ago. Thank you for your wonderful work here! I am enjoying the fruits of your labor and will likely check in from time to time. One book recommendation will serve as a humble thank offering: I notice that you have one citation from Mary Carruthers' The Craft of Thought (from an earlier post). Have you read her volume The Book of Memory? I used it for a paper on Dante a few years ago, and have referred it mentally ever since. It seems to me that cultivating the arts of memory might be the solution for our age to the problem of information saturation. Her book gives some wonderful thoughts on how the ancients, including Dante, among others, did this. <br /><br />I look forward to reading your daily notes as well as perusing the archives! ~T.Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10409029017940484576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-30049913552520536842010-02-08T12:37:57.961-06:002010-02-08T12:37:57.961-06:00Orr> Yes, I haven't read that particular bo...Orr> Yes, I haven't read that particular book, but I've read its ilk. I don't suppose I find them 'offense-giving' <i>per se</i>, but it <i>does</i> bother me to see an Orthodox priest taking that sort of approach. No one denies that the Fathers were human beings with their own foibles, but approaching them in a crudely secular way does not help us 'understand' them any better. Quite the contrary. What's needed are more biographies that are scholarly, without sacrificing the unique considerations and emphases of Orthodox theology and spirituality in its approach to the Fathers. They are deified Saints, and Orthodox clergy should be writing books that make that clear. What good does it do to talk about deification in theology (like Russell's book for instance), but then miss the opportunity to show this process at work in the lives of the deified themselves?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-51236388196642195402010-02-08T12:19:44.680-06:002010-02-08T12:19:44.680-06:00‘Cultured, too cultured' is exactly how I feel...‘Cultured, too cultured' is exactly how I feel when reading St. Gregory at any length. The rhetoric is just too overblown for this late modern. I enjoy him in pre-edited slices, but find it hard to stick with him for long periods of time. In some ways, this is similar to my reaction to St. Maximus' works.<br /><br />I am drawn to them and their work in the same way I am drawn to philosophy - strongly, but ineptly. I just get lost when the terminology gets too specifically philosophical. A shame, for me.<br /><br />McGuckin's book length treatment of St. Gregory, <i>Saint Gregory of Nazianzus: An Intellectual Biography</i> (Crestwood, NY: SVS Press, 2001), is very good, but it is far from a hagiography so let the easily offended beware. I came away from the book liking Sts. Gregory and Basil less than I did before I started the book. Perhaps those better versed in academic criticism of the venerable would be less so. (Oddly, I didn't find McGuckin's book of St. Cyril of Alexandria as offense-giving; perhaps this was due to reading it much further into my Orthodox life than when I read about St. Gregory). A limited preview is available here:<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=7jervOqijlwC&lpg=PP1&dq=Saint%20Gregory%20of%20Nazianzus%3A%20An%20Intellectual%20Biography&pg=PR5#v=onepage&q=&f=false<br /><br />(A limited preview of the St. Cyril book is here:<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=QxhR9ihUAWkC&lpg=PP1&dq=Saint%20cyril%20of%20alexandria%20mcguckin&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=Saint%20cyril%20of%20alexandria%20mcguckin&f=false )123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-73056178185005002172010-02-08T10:54:05.358-06:002010-02-08T10:54:05.358-06:00Yes, I find him the most appealing of the Cappadoc...Yes, I find him the most appealing of the Cappadocians, as well as of the Three Hierarchs. Where is the mission you attend?Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-9861325959644859242010-02-08T09:03:48.179-06:002010-02-08T09:03:48.179-06:00"[4] One can’t help but think that this has t..."[4] One can’t help but think that this has the makings of a great film. The foreboding of St Gregory and the turning to evil of the Apostate have something of Star Wars about them!"<br /><br />Darth Julian! I love it!<br /><br />I'm always interested in St. Gregory; I didn't know much about him, until I started attending a mission dedicated to him. Since then, I've gotten to know and love him--and not just for his theological writing.Justinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207103546838127832noreply@blogger.com