tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post4938674643038263415..comments2023-10-04T09:50:08.070-05:00Comments on Logismoi: 'As Deffe as Stok or Ston'—The OED on Stocks & StonesAaron Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-45717226953585083722009-08-17T09:59:01.400-05:002009-08-17T09:59:01.400-05:00Glad I could be of help. I enjoyed your follow-up ...Glad I could be of help. I enjoyed your follow-up here as well. And since you’ve quoted from <i>Pearl</i> and <i>Sir Orfeo</i>, why not also <i>Sir Gawain and the Green Knight</i>? In that poem, there is a line very similar to the one you quoted (above) from <i>Sir Orfeo</i>: <i>Bot stode stylle as þe ston, oþer a stubbe auþer</i> (l. 2293). In the glossary to Tolkien and Gordon’s edition of the poem (1925), Tolkien has <i>stubbe</i> “stock, stump”. But this time, in his translation, Tolkien renders it, “but stood as still as a stone or the <b>stump</b> of a tree” (emphasis added). In his <i>Middle English Vocabulary</i> of 1922, Tolkien has both <i>stok(ke)</i> “stem, tree-trunk” and <i>stub(be)</i> “tree-trunk, stump” — interesting that he doesn’t use “stock” for either gloss in that work!Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-77687135353059624632009-08-15T15:28:08.453-05:002009-08-15T15:28:08.453-05:00There may at one time have been something antecede...There may at one time have been something antecedent to Wisdom in Hebrew. Though the general thought is that Wisdom of Solomon was composed in Greek, and the argument is an accurate one as far as it goes (fluent prose), a very good translator can't be ruled out as an outside possibility. If we didn't have the Hebrew Isaiah and Job we might think that the LXX Esaias and Iob were originally written in Greek, as they're quite fluently translated as well.<br /><br />So, don't count yourself an idiot, but rather as realistic. It's certainly a possibility. There were plenty of people who argued that Sirach was composed in Greek, and they were proven wrong when bits of Hebrew Sirach were found in the Cairo Genizah, Qumran, and Masada.<br /><br />My alternative answer is much shorter:<br />What else would Solomon have written it in, but Hebrew?!Kevin P. Edgecombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16590490181739464401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-70796903509271189562009-08-15T11:36:34.514-05:002009-08-15T11:36:34.514-05:00Thanks Kevin. Interesting stuff!
Of course, I kne...Thanks Kevin. Interesting stuff!<br /><br />Of course, I knew there was no Hebrew original for Wisdom of Solomon, and wrote that in there without thinking, like an idiot! Time to edit....Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-17384749211698499882009-08-15T02:39:50.628-05:002009-08-15T02:39:50.628-05:00Yes, Deut 28.36 is "etz wa-aben", "...Yes, Deut 28.36 is "etz wa-aben", "tree/wood and stone," while Jer 3.9 is "et-ha-aben wa-et-ha-etz", "with stone and with tree/wood" (the definite article "ha" in those indicates a generality or abstraction, as in "ha-hayim", "life"). Hebrew uses the same word (etz) for tree and wood, so it's unclear here whether the whole tree or its wood is in focus in these. There is no Hebrew preserved for Wis 14.21, which has λιθοις και ξυλοις.<br /><br />There is the interesting connection too, to the Hebrew referent of "wood" in such a context and "stock". The oft-mentioned "asherah" in the Old Testament appears to have been a tree that grew and then had all its branches and bark removed so that it was a dead stump, a bare wooden pillar, which was taken to represent "Asherah", the wife of "El", the chief god of the Canaanites, the parents of all the other gods. These wooden pillars were apparently cared for a dressed in fancy cloths, just as various small standing stones (sing. "matzebah", plural "matsebot") were anointed and treated as idols of a sort. The matsebot are depicted (as in the account of Jacob's ladder, which we New Calendar people heard again tonight!) as originally commemorative stones, but later (buttressed by archaeology's findings) it seems the stones themselves came to be seen as idols or something very close. There is here the connection with Jebel Harun: the Islamic sanctuary atop the mountain is built atop a Nabatean sanctuary for the "betyl" (the "bet-il" or "house of god") that was formerly there, perhaps even of the famous Nabatean god Dushara. These betyls and the matzebot were all aniconic, just rocks, not carved into any anthropomorphic shape, in distinction from what we might consider "real" idols. Still forbidden, though.<br /><br />Anyhow, all this is to say that these practices of the Hebrews and neighbors find reflections in other cultures as well. Raised stones and aniconic shorn trees/stumps have been revered elsewhere, too.<br /><br />Nighty-night!Kevin P. Edgecombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16590490181739464401noreply@blogger.com