tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post632977647341685280..comments2023-10-04T09:50:08.070-05:00Comments on Logismoi: 'The Brightest Star in the Constellation of Mystics'—St Dionysius the AreopagiteAaron Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-78263571440711600602009-10-21T10:06:21.723-05:002009-10-21T10:06:21.723-05:00Matthew> Thank you for posting those URLs. You&...Matthew> Thank you for posting those URLs. You're quite right about the intro!Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-8320170301502925452009-10-21T09:37:01.366-05:002009-10-21T09:37:01.366-05:00Doing a quick search I see that the Rev. John Park...Doing a quick search I see that the Rev. John Parker translation of the "On the Heavenly Hierarchy" is here ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/dio/dio43.htm )and of the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy is here ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/dio/dio59.htm )and includes the first essay that John posted. The Index can be viewed here ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/dio/index.htm )One, of course, should disregard the intro on the index page.<br /><br />MatthewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-37997635703765516192009-10-19T21:51:07.884-05:002009-10-19T21:51:07.884-05:00Aaron, Don't forget Schmemann!Aaron, Don't forget Schmemann!seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13804487873268748108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-75563113751466799912009-10-19T21:00:26.914-05:002009-10-19T21:00:26.914-05:00Vlad> Yes, this is most evident with Fr Meyendo...Vlad> Yes, this is most evident with Fr Meyendorff. Some of the things he said in <i>Christ in Eastern Christian Thought</i> were just ridiculous.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-81179480649806917012009-10-19T20:51:18.676-05:002009-10-19T20:51:18.676-05:00Richard,
Of course that there are scholars that ha...Richard,<br />Of course that there are scholars that have no clue otherwise, neither their teachers. The agenda was set long ago, is the entire "criticism". Now they work on automatic pilot. The real trouble is when the Orthodox adopt their methods. They adopt their doubts as well.seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13804487873268748108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-57110413929145723282009-10-19T20:33:19.052-05:002009-10-19T20:33:19.052-05:00Vlad: no problem, and I can't really say I dis...Vlad: no problem, and I can't really say I disagree with you, even if I put it differently. I might suggest that the "clear agenda" part can be unfair, at least as a generalization. I'm familiar enough at a personal level with secular scholars for whom it can fairly be said that it's not they have an agenda, it's just that they weren't trained to have a clue otherwise, and neither were their teachers.<br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-74525185230270157192009-10-19T17:18:47.117-05:002009-10-19T17:18:47.117-05:00Richard,
I am sorry that you might have discerned ...Richard,<br />I am sorry that you might have discerned hostility in my comment. It was not directed at you personally. It is my contention that it is not the Church that formulates a different question than what modern scholarship mean by "authorship", but the modern scholarship formulates a different question than the Church, following an agenda that is all to clear. The Church has no need to "demonstrate" the authorship of Dionysius, as She has no need to "demonstrate" the "authorship" of the Gospels. The onus of demonstration is on the challengers of the Tradition. So far their "demonstrations" are far from convincing. <br />Vladseraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13804487873268748108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-731047386698016782009-10-19T16:35:03.486-05:002009-10-19T16:35:03.486-05:00Despota> Admiration is always welcome here! I t...Despota> Admiration is always welcome here! I think you may be right about the comments...Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-91474032988096820292009-10-19T16:32:46.626-05:002009-10-19T16:32:46.626-05:00I have nothing to add to this exchange other than ...I have nothing to add to this exchange other than my admiration. (I also wanted to round the comments up to 25, which is, I think, a record for this blog.)+Metropolitan SAVAS of Pittsburghhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04508393042893425734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-39665458566312153632009-10-19T10:14:08.172-05:002009-10-19T10:14:08.172-05:00Glad it's clearer. Call it the difference betw...Glad it's clearer. Call it the difference between posting at 7:30am and 11:00am!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-3252582454571038412009-10-19T10:03:57.463-05:002009-10-19T10:03:57.463-05:00Thank you, Richard. I thought this a much clearer ...Thank you, Richard. I thought this a much clearer statement of your point, and I'd be surprised to find John, Kevin, or Vlad disagreeing with you.<br /><br />Keep in mind with Vlad that he's not a native speaker, so his interpretation of your comments as well as his ability to be attentive to 'tone' in English will be effected accordingly.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-51841578474653943062009-10-19T09:59:07.614-05:002009-10-19T09:59:07.614-05:00Vlad:
It's difficult to take the tone of your...Vlad:<br /><br />It's difficult to take the tone of your question as anything but hostile, and I'm not at all certain why that's warranted. Nonetheless, my general assumption is that the Church knows what She is doing. I don't have any reason to doubt, therefore, that the writings attributed to St. Dionysius are related to him. It seems to me that if they just appeared out of nowhere in the 5th century and had nothing to do with anything associated with him, somebody would have said something. Innovation didn't exactly win a lot of friends in those days.<br /><br />My point is that we have to be prepared to acknowledge that on this matter, the Church is formulating, and answering, a different question than what modern secular scholars mean by "authorship". Of course this does not invalidate what we mean by authorship, but if we're not prepared to make the distinction, then maybe we should just stay out of the discussion altogether, if our scholars are just going to be talking past their secular counterparts, and getting increasingly upset as they do so.<br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-46533302387365305602009-10-19T07:13:45.770-05:002009-10-19T07:13:45.770-05:00Vlad> Oh, I certainly took Richard to be saying...Vlad> Oh, I certainly took Richard to be saying that the writings were very much related to St Dionysius and not any kind of hoax.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-77781275077560847732009-10-19T02:26:12.671-05:002009-10-19T02:26:12.671-05:00Richard,
I will ask you more bluntly: what is your...Richard,<br />I will ask you more bluntly: what is your position in the question of Dionysius authorship? What methodology you favor and therefore what answers do you favor? Are the writings attributed to St. Dionysius the Areopagite, the disciple of St. Paul the Apostle, in any way related to him, or are they an elaborate hoax which expose the Church as a fraud? This is the question.seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13804487873268748108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-77988281021743430722009-10-18T20:58:24.933-05:002009-10-18T20:58:24.933-05:00Richard> Fair enough! Sorry, I think I understa...Richard> Fair enough! Sorry, I think I understand the paragraph as a whole, but I don't quite get how it fits onto this situation. On the subject of the different disciplines, have you read <i>Discerning the Mystery</i>? Awesome book!<br /><br />Anonymous> Sorry to break it to you, but I bought my copy in Greece. It seems like Kevin Edgecomb was talking about a site he found for ordering Greek books though. And if you're really determined, I know people in Greece who could pick up a copy and mail it to you.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-31926804792030880402009-10-18T18:09:18.938-05:002009-10-18T18:09:18.938-05:00Aaron,
Can the Chrestou translation of Dionysios ...Aaron,<br /><br />Can the Chrestou translation of Dionysios be purchased in America, or did you buy yours abroad?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-9521813219223191352009-10-18T17:00:47.728-05:002009-10-18T17:00:47.728-05:00I'm not sure where it is you're getting lo...I'm not sure where it is you're getting lost, and my attempts to restate the point have wound up looking remarkably like the second point, so I'll just have to leave it there for now. Maybe I'll make it later in a different context and it will be clearer to all concerned.<br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-85968007639082891202009-10-18T15:12:55.030-05:002009-10-18T15:12:55.030-05:00Sorry Richard, you kind of lost me in that second ...Sorry Richard, you kind of lost me in that second paragraph!Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-9939897417233347882009-10-18T07:33:17.960-05:002009-10-18T07:33:17.960-05:00Not to get all Clinton-esque, but it really does b...Not to get all Clinton-esque, but it really does boil down to a question of what we say the word "by" means. Do we mean it in a modern "cult of the author" sense, where St. Dionysius' hand itself produced the first manuscript? That's the question modern secular scholarship asks, but as I suggested, that's an anachronism from our point of view.<br /><br />The methodologies of different disciplines, that is to say, different questions, often produce different results. We have to make sure we understand what our questions and methodologies actually are, and how they are, or are not, the same questions that others are asking. If we're nominally asking the same questions but really meaning something else, this is an issue where people will continue to talk past each other and reach troubling conclusions as a result.<br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-39601673623174519732009-10-17T23:17:52.273-05:002009-10-17T23:17:52.273-05:00I agree with Aaron and John. The problem is much d...I agree with Aaron and John. The problem is much deeper. It raised the problem of the whole Tradition and our faithfulness to it. The papists corrupted it, the protestants did away with it altogether. We cannot do that. We must uphold it and show its detractors that we are not intimidated by their pretensions to be its judges.<br />Vladseraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13804487873268748108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-9151255929952913252009-10-17T23:00:43.021-05:002009-10-17T23:00:43.021-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.John https://www.blogger.com/profile/07111016099805416329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-67460131214184732842009-10-17T22:39:47.286-05:002009-10-17T22:39:47.286-05:00Oh, I don't disagree that it can be, and has b...Oh, I don't disagree that it can be, and has been, a stumbling block. I'm personally aware of a situation where less than a year after baptism, an individual left the faith over a series of issues that apparently began with seeing the issue of St. Dionysius as evidence that Orthodox Christianity lies about the authority of Tradition, or at least is willfully not entirely up front about particular points. That's obviously a conclusion with which I disagree.<br /><br />There's a broader point here -- perhaps we can say that, just because we can't give an answer that secular scholarship is going to find convincing or meaningful, doesn't automatically make them right and us wrong, no matter how much secular scholarship might want to portray it that way. Some might think that means we just stay out of the discussion altogether; some might think that means we participate, but we have to figure out how to negotiate the terms so that we're at least nominally speaking the same language. What I've found to be the most satisfying idea is to find a way of subversively using the secular discourse with the aim of reclaiming it, but that takes somebody who really knows what they're doing.<br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-44911221432353896982009-10-17T20:10:16.266-05:002009-10-17T20:10:16.266-05:00Richard> I quite agree that this issue is of no...Richard> I quite agree that this issue is of no concern to us per se (hence my reluctance to bring it up in this post!), but the fact is that many of the faithful are confused about this matter (I used to be one of them), and the response given to a question about it on the 'Ask a Priest' page at the OCA website is not going to allay that confusion in the least. It is not only in closed scholarly circles that one finds the constant references to 'Pseudo-Dionysius' and 'Neoplatonism', but all over the internet as well. For this reason, I brought it up in spite of my extreme reluctance in the hope of actually clarifying things somewhat. In the face of so much confusion, it is not enough merely to repeat the truth or to repost what the Prologue says without comment, someone must also address the confusion directly and explicitly. The authorship and the Orthodoxy of the Corpus Dionysiacum is not a real problem from the Orthodox perspective, but the confusion of the faithful is.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-71327733616954243142009-10-17T18:59:36.612-05:002009-10-17T18:59:36.612-05:00I'll toss out the idea the whole issue of &quo...I'll toss out the idea the whole issue of "Pseudo-Dionysius" vs. St. Dionysius can perhaps be seen as an anachronistic imposition of a modern category and thus trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist from the Orthodox perspective. There are some who might feel compelled to refer to the former to make it clear what they're talking about in certain circles, but otherwise I'm not really sure it's anything with which we need to concern ourselves.<br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6714437334790446678.post-79684040756117332022009-10-17T12:49:52.863-05:002009-10-17T12:49:52.863-05:00Vlad & Kevin> Having just finished Discerni...Vlad & Kevin> Having just finished <i>Discerning the Mystery</i> I am in acute agreement with you! 'Patrology', schmology!<br /><br />By the way, Vlad, thank you very much for your translation of Fr Staniloae. This is a helpful contribution to clearing the confusion about St Dionysius among English-speaking Orthodox Christians.Aaron Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17775589009145031773noreply@blogger.com